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Okay, I've been slacking. It's a holiday weekend though. Anway, we'll return to feminism with Lisa and then later with some more from Hot Mamma Parker. And then...with any luck...my mom. We hope. However, on Friday I'll be posting my holiday list, so that will break it up.

Anyway, Lisa says...

Well, it is clear to see that you and I have divergent views on feminism and the role of women in the US. Having said that, I do think we agree on several issues. I imagine that your viewpoint has influenced by your mom, who was a successful professional. In contrast, I think my family was much more conservative: My mom didn't work (although her income would have been useful) and she didn't want a career. Of course, she didn't want to be a housewife either. Alas, Dad didn't make enough money to hire someone to cook and clean and no one was happy in the household. Another story for another day. Back to feminism.

So I am joining G-Man in the struggle for a united working class, but a united working class where women and men are equal - and not the equality we saw develop in Orwell's Animal Farm. I want equality that produces a
society which values raising children and designs a work model that accommodates parents dropping their kids off at school, picking them up and having dinner together. Family doesn't have to mean a father and a mother and child(ren) but rather a group of people who love each other. We all know how fun gatherings of good food and conversation are. We need more of
them. Human beings are social by nature. Perhaps the craziness we are seeing is a result from the unnatural emphasis and glorification of individualism in the USA. Think about it.

I want to see societal changes on a big scale because:

(1) Our values are out of whack. Both men and women should have to make choices and compromises without society favoring one gender over the other. And why should any of us have to compromise so much to have a family, anyway?

(2) Inequality and prejudice have been institutionalized to such a degree that people don't always see it. Read Ronald Takaki's Iron Cages and Multiculturalism (2 great books) to see the insidiousness of
institutionalized racism. Read Richter's Facing East from Indian Country or Lies My Teacher Told Me by Loewen for different perspectives on US history.

(3) Misinformation is contributing to the illusions that are driving people to seek money over relationships (the definition of success) and domination over sustainability (depletion of natural and human resources).

So you think you are Miss Independent by nurture and not nature. You have money. You have a successful career. You generally have a man who is totally into you at most times. You are in a position to choose whatever you want. You are educated enough to (a) recognize you have been trained to be independent and (b) overcome/override that training. What is holding you back?

Now, on my side, I was raised to serve men. I was told from a young age that women don't need an education. Oh it was okay to get one, but really it wasn't all that necessary because women were supposed to get married, have babies, and keep a clean house. By nature, I knew that perspective was wrong, VERY WRONG!!! I fought it. When I had the opportunity to be involved with a man (not married, just taken care of until he got tired of me) with a lot of money who would have taken me to Paris for the weekend, etc, I didn't choose to be with him. Mostly, I did this because I wasn't that into him, but also because I am not an object that is discard-able once one is no longer amused by me. Society still treats women as objects through beauty contests, advertising, and even the poster women success stories. Oh-look-what-she-was-able-to-do, see-we-have-a-woman-in-a-powerful-position,
let‚s-get-a-few-more-but-not-allow-any-changes-in-the-workplace-to-make-the-job-desirable-for-the-woman-to-keep-it. I wouldn't want to be a CEO because it is not the lifestyle I would choose and I deplore a society which values 16 hour days, cutting deals, making people disposable. There is nothing that is "just business" - it is all
personal because every action is about relationships and community.

So, Jocelyn, my point is, what have you really been nurtured to do and accept? Simply be Miss Independent or to be Miss Independent with Regrets? Would you say that by nature ALL you want is a family to take care of (a demanding and rewarding job, mind you)? Or would you say, that by nature you want a family to take care of and a project(s)/goal(s) that you can also
pursue, and, well, whatever else you would find fulfilling? The conservative extremists are saying that by nature women are nurturers meant to be fulfilled by taking care of their family while not needing to worry
about business or politics or anything else in the public space.

Enough, my friend. This is getting long and you are 2 emails behind

Jocelyn says...

Okay, firstly, I can't believe she would call me out on being two emails behind when she disappeared to London for weeks on end with no word at all. That is all on that.

It's true, we do agree on more points than we disagree on. Though I think perhaps people who didn't know us and read that email might think otherwise, but Lisa has always been far more to the left than I am, and I'm pretty far to the left, so consider that.

I do need a few clarifications though, which I've been trying to avoid when posting responses. Firstly, I'm not sure one would call my mother a successful professional (Mom? What would you say?) or necessarily somebody who modeled an emphasis on independence, but I will give you that she was smart and progressive for her time, for sure. I THINK WE WOULD ALL LOVE TO HEAR WHAT MY MOTHER HAS TO SAY ON THIS TOPIC. AHEM.

I don't think anybody here, myself included, was implying that we should rock it with the conservative extremists and eliminate women from business and public space altogether. I think more of what we were saying was that women who want that should have that choice, but I, at least, believe that fewer women want that than pursue it. And they pursue it because they've been taught to believe that career and success are standards of measurement for them. That is all.

The difference between Lisa and me, it isn't what we believe. Because everything she has said it something I wish were the case. The difference is that she's a believer and I'm not. She believes that those changes can (and in time will) happen. I believe we don't now, nor have we ever, lived in a world where there isn't a pyramid of inequality (gender-based, race-based, class-based, etc.) and that we need to learn to live in that world and make it the best that we can. There's the difference.

I'm reading The World is Flat. Does it appear that globalization will make classism even more prevelent (sp?), particularly in the US? Probably. But it will probably also be good for women. So I dunno.

Next up...Hottie Mamma Parker.